Keith Uber: Organizational Identity and vLEIs

In this episode, we sit down with Keith Uber, VP of Sales Engineering at Ubisecure, to discuss the role of verifiable credentials in identity and access management.
Keith shares his insights on Organizational Identity and how vLEIs change the game, create new business opportunities, and unlock efficiencies for representatives of businesses to transact more seamlessly.
Keith also shares his perspective on how Ubisecure is engaging with the eIDAS 2.0 and European Identity Wallet initiatives on the consumer identity side.
We explore the fascinating overlap between Organizational Identity and Consumer Identity. While Ubisecure’s focus is in the EU market, there are loads of insights that will be helpful to people building IDtech products around the world.
To learn more about Ubisecure, visit https://www.ubisecure.com/.
Be sure to check out Ubisecure’s podcast titled ‘Let’s Talk About Digital Identity’ at https://www.ubisecure.com/lets-talk-about-digital-identity-podcast/.
Reach out to Riley (@rileyphughes) and Trinsic (@trinsic_id) on Twitter. We’d love to hear from you.

Full Transcript

Transcript lightly edited for clarity.

Riley Hughes: Welcome to the Future of Identity podcast, where we talk to the people building the ID tech products of tomorrow. I’m Riley Hughes, co-founder and CEO of Trinsic, and we build infrastructure for launching awesome identity products. In this episode, I sit down with Keith Uber, VP of Sales Engineering at Ubisecure, to discuss the role of verifiable credentials in identity and access management. Keith shares his insights on organizational identity as opposed to consumer identity, and how vLEIs change the game here by creating new business opportunities and unlocking efficiencies for representatives of businesses to transact more seamlessly. Keith also shares his perspective on how Ubisecure is engaging with the eIDAS 2.0 and European Identity Wallet initiatives, and how these consumer identity initiatives overlap with organizational identity initiatives. While their focus is in the EU market, there are loads of insights that will be helpful to people building ID tech products around the world. And now to my conversation with Keith. Keith, welcome.

Keith Uber: Hi, Riley. Nice to be here.

Riley Hughes: Yeah, so Keith, I gave a little bit of an intro on your role at Ubisecure, but I wonder if you could just start with what is your story? How did you end up here in this role working in identity?

Keith Uber: Yeah, well, I’m speaking to you today from Helsinki, Finland. It’s a long way from my home in Melbourne, Australia. So I graduated from university in Melbourne and started working for a logistics company. I was working as a software engineer. In that, I was dealing with electronic data interchange, and I was using software that was made in Finland and had the opportunity then to work for this Finnish company. And the company that I worked for was a telecom operator, and during the dot-com boom, they had acquired many small companies. And one of the challenges they had was every company solution had their own, rolled their own solution for user management, identity management. Every user had many passwords, many user accounts. That company pivoted after that, and I was put in place of a project to evaluate single sign-on solutions. I then went back to university. I got a master’s degree in software business, master’s economics, and moved to Helsinki and got a job working for Ubisecure, which is a Finnish provider of customer identity and access management software.

Keith Uber: That’s where I’ve been now for 14 years, based in both out of Helsinki.

Riley Hughes: Awesome. Yeah, so Ubisecure, it’s an IAM platform generally, which is a little bit different than the typical identity tech product that we have on our podcast here. So I’m excited because I think you’ll have some unique insights to share that are different than the typical things that we talk about here. I come from, of course, the world of verifiable credentials, and I think there’s this interesting dynamic where about half of the verifiable credential space sees verifiable credentials as a tool for identity and access management, and maybe the other half sees it as more of a replacement for identity proofing. I’m curious how you see this from the Ubisecure perspective, and I wonder how you see verifiable credentials. Do you see them making an impact more in the IAM world, or do you see them more as a replacement for certain kinds of identity proofing?

Keith Uber: Certainly, we see it as both. Our identity and access management software can trust third-party sources for authentication, so verifiable credentials as a login method would be ideal in certain use cases. Our other side of the software is all about working out what’s your authority within an organization or what’s your authority as a user. And that can be proven through verifiable credentials. It can be used for login and also for giving the user additional access rights once they have an account.

Riley Hughes: So there’s kind of the consumer IAM and there’s the workforce and organizational IAM side of things, and verifiable credentials sounds like are applicable in both areas. Your organization has quite the deep expertise on the organizational identity side, and I’d love to dig in there in just a moment. But on the consumer side, from your vantage point in Europe, what are some things that are happening that get you excited about where reusable identity is going on the consumer IAM, or as it relates to kind of the overlap between reusable identity and consumer IAM?

Keith Uber: I think the biggest thing recently for consumers, for the end users, would be the passkey initiatives, FIDO initiative, which is now finally reaching sort of end user adoption. It’s become understood, or it doesn’t need to be understood anymore. It’s the way that people sign in. In Europe, there’s been a lot of hope that was put on eIDAS for citizen-to-government identification, especially for cross-border use cases. The adoption of that has been very slow, but we’re really looking forward to a current initiative around the European Identity Wallet, which is what we see as a way that the consumer will be able to authenticate to not only government services but also third-party services. That’s, of course, going to be a long project, but that’s going to really change how citizens authenticate to government. It’s a big part of our business too.

Riley Hughes: What is your involvement with the eIDAS 2.0 or the European Identity Wallet initiative?

Keith Uber: So specifically, we’re not directly involved in the eIDAS 2 initiatives or the EU Identity Wallet. But of course, we’re following very closely what the local authorities, customs regions are doing. Ubisecure provides a backend infrastructure to authenticated providers who provide citizen login services, and those same login services we expect to be used as verification sources for citizens. Our customers are closely tied to that network. Like all government projects, it’s going to take time and it will probably be delayed, but it’s a big game changer for our customers.

Riley Hughes: Yeah, it’s interesting you brought up the FIDO work and how the recent advent of passkeys and the form factor that the basic public-private key pair type authentication takes with passkeys has done something. I mean, I don’t know, it’s not really that much better if you really try to break it down—but somehow the form factor that it takes and the just lower friction that passkeys represent really does a lot for adoption. I’ve been using passkeys, and man, it is just really smooth compared to like an authenticator app or something like that. And I think part of the reason for that smoothness is the proximity from the operating system, because you have Apple, Google, Microsoft all integrating passkeys very closely with the lowest levels of the software that they’re providing. And this is obviously a very private sector thing that has rolled out in a way that seems like is getting adoption. On the other hand, we have the EU Identity Wallet and other initiatives which are government-led.

Riley Hughes: Do you have any insight into how maybe the European market specifically will look at private sector and the big tech world of the Apple and Google wallets and Samsung wallets and all of that versus the EU Identity Wallet? How do you see these two big top-down initiatives playing out?

Keith Uber: The EU has published a reference architecture and a reference wallet, so there will be a reference wallet that each member state could implement by themselves if they choose. If we look at how eIDAS 1.0 was done, they made a reference implementation of the specific nodes for doing the type of identity federation, and most member states followed that model. What I think will happen is in each member state, there’s an existing application already in use. So we already have, for example, in Finland, we have a government app for messaging with government sector. That will become, I think, the wallet. And the same, I think, will happen in other places. But hopefully it’s done in a model where you can store your credential in the wallet of your choice. Of course, that’s the intention of the EU, is also to break down these borders, allow cross-border business, cross-border mobility. So having that credential in the wallet of your choice, which might be the operating system wallet that provides, or it might be a big tech wallet, it might be something that you choose for yourself.

Keith Uber: They won’t foolishly put all their eggs in one basket. This is the chicken-and-egg problem, and there’s lots of eggs, chickens, and baskets.

Riley Hughes: I like that framing. One of the interesting trends happening in the space right now is some of these top-down initiatives that are longer term and will definitely be really impactful for adoption, obviously. Then there’s also some bottoms-up things from just product teams, individual product teams. Maybe it’s startups, maybe it’s innovation centers within existing organizations or companies releasing an identity wallet in their existing products. And, you know, Ubisecure is an infrastructure provider to a lot of players, especially in the European market. Do you see any of this happening where there are maybe some of your customers who are looking at offering verifiable credentials or offering wallets as a part of their products? And is that something that you’ve explored, or is your strategy more to rely on these top-down initiatives and piggyback on the wave of adoption that will obviously come from that?

Keith Uber: Among our customers, I don’t see anybody at the moment looking at offering their own wallets. I think it’s much too soon. Of course things change.

Riley Hughes: The other side of your business, on the organizational identity side, it’s a fascinating category because most of the time when I hear people talking about self-sovereign identity or reusable identity or something, the use case that’s always brought up is something like proving your age at a bar. It’s all centered around individuals and preserving privacy for individuals and things like that. But most of the pain that I feel related to identity is around proving that I am an authorized signatory for Trinsic and delegating access to people at Trinsic to accomplish things for me and interacting with our vendors and suppliers and our banks and all of these things from a business perspective. And while these use cases aren’t maybe as flashy or accessible to understand or talk about in just a pithy way, this is an area that I think you’ve been, or Ubisecure has been quite involved with for some time. I guess, could you walk me through what this has looked like for Ubisecure over time and where this is heading in the next few years?

Keith Uber: So, organizational identity is a big part of our business. And it comes from the fact that often in B2B world or business-to-government world, the person who buys a service or signs up for a service is not the person who uses it. So you might sign off on the invoice, but it’s actually delegated then to somebody else to do or to a whole team of people whose members change over time. And in business, more and more things are outsourced. So you might empower a third-party company to do something on your behalf, such as payroll or taxes or whatever. And Ubisecure powered the Finnish government business-to-business authorization and identification system for business-to-government services. It was called Katso for over 15 years. And that was a way that a person could sign in and authenticate once and then prove that they have the connection to one or more businesses. And then the ability for that to be delegated in different ways, either to an individual, delegated to another organization, and so forth.

Keith Uber: So that was able to reap massive cost savings for the Finnish government across over 100 different services, and they had 400,000 companies registered in that scheme. So it was the primary way to do business with the government. But coming back to the main point was that in a B2B world, the person who buys the service is not the one who’s actually consuming that service. That’s the problem we solve with our technology, which is basically allowing somebody to be verified either through third-party sources or through an authoritative database, and then to get that strongly verified account, highly assured, and then to be able to invite somebody or for somebody to request access. through that. And that could be an individual or another organization. These things just slice days and weeks off the paper trail, off the red tape, off the bureaucracy of doing business-to-business or business-to-government transactions. And there’s no more power of attorney or verified documents or waiting in queues. Everything can be done online.

Riley Hughes: One thing that I see happening in the space that seems like it’s going to make a big impact in organizational identity is the verifiable legal entity identifiers, or vLEIs. And I wonder, how do vLEIs change this, or what do vLEIs add to what you’re already doing in this space?

Keith Uber: First of all, the LEI is a legal entity identifier. It’s like a global company number. It’s an ISO standard, a way for every individual legal entity, which is not necessarily a company; it could be a fund or many different forms of companies, over 400 different forms of companies across the world. And it’s a way for every legal entity to have its own clear identifier. The vLEI is a way to represent that number and tie that to an individual. So it uses verifiable credentials to do that, and that’s a huge step forward in that LEI model because although LEI itself provides a wonderful global cross-border transparency for business structures, it shows who owns a company, who’s the ultimate beneficiary of a company. What’s been missing is the link to tie that to an individual, and vLEI is a way to tie an individual to an organization. And even in a specific role. So we could buy you specifically to your role at Trinsic. And that’s powered by the GLEIF, which is the Global Legal Entity Identifier Foundation, a non-profit foundation which provides the governance framework for that.

Keith Uber: And Ubisecure has been what’s called a local operating unit. We’ve been approved by the GLEIF to issue LEI numbers. So we’ve gone through the certification process, and we have a platform called RapidLEI, which is how we issue these LEI numbers. And we’re currently the worldwide, the number one issuer of those legal entity identifiers. These identifiers have become mandatory in many jurisdictions for many transactions. It’s a really clear way to bring transparency and clarity and traceability to many business transactions, not only in the finance sector, in logistics and shipping. It brings to verifiable credentials that governance, which is needed to make sure that the issuer of the verifiable credential is actually a trusted body, that they’ve gone through a certification process, they followed the right procedures to verify that what is inside that credential is accurate and true. And it’s a framework for monitoring that, for managing the data quality, managing all of those processes.

Keith Uber: So it adds a lot of value to just the verifiable credential, which of course anybody could make themselves.

Riley Hughes: Yeah. How ubiquitous are LEIs? Is this something that in certain jurisdictions is like every organization has an LEI, or is this something that is mainly more accessible and desirable for the major enterprise companies? How widespread are LEIs?

Keith Uber: Currently globally, the number of LEIs is over 2 million. It’s not a huge number if you think of the whole global scale. But in certain markets, for example in finance, trade, it’s becoming mandatory or it’s become mandatory already in many. Many jurisdictions to have that number. Many government house or registering authorities for businesses, they issue alongside their own number. They follow the procedures, and they’re a registered issuer of LEIs as well. They’re also the local operating unit. When you register a company in London, you can also register your LEI number at the Companies House and record that. In Finland, for example, the Finnish Trade Register is also a validated issuer of this LEI number. And of course, more and more legislation is baking in this requirement for LEI because of the efficiencies that it brings. If you want to investigate a transaction, it’s going to slice the time for investigating that transaction because you’re linking it to a number where you get an API where you can validate that, find out more about that connection for free.

Riley Hughes: Do you think that the advent of vLEIs will increase adoption of LEIs, or how do you think that these two sort of concepts will relate?

Keith Uber: I think vLEIs will be a subset of that main LEI use case. So the beauty of vLEI is if you get a vLEI tying it to a company, you only need to do that once, and then you can reuse that verifiable credential for many transactions. One sort of driver may be that you can use them as a signing tool for signing documents. And this is a really powerful thing because as opposed to qualified signatures, you sign a document and tie your identity to a document. With vLEI, you’re tying yourself to the document, you’re tying your company and your role at that company, all in the signature. And if there’s multiple signatories on a document, it also shows the relationship between those signatories. It might grow the adoption, I think, of the use of digital signatures in business transactions as well.

Riley Hughes: And so, as someone who is so close to all of this, what is a realistic timeline, in your opinion, where you think that we’ll start to see vLEIs or organizations like maybe mine? When will I be able to get a vLEI to prove that I am a co-founder of Trinsic and, you know, et cetera?

Keith Uber: If you look at comparable technologies, for example passkeys, it takes a good five to ten years for widescale adoption of a new technology. In Europe especially, with the EU ID wallet, I think that’s going to be really interesting because it’s going to become probably the default way to authenticate with government. It’s going to be used for business use cases. It has the capability to include LEI as an attribute. So that will heighten people’s understanding of that and heighten software developers’ sort of open their eyes to the value of that in speeding up business processes and reducing the costs. For example, onboarding or verifying third parties, it might be suppliers or customers or partners, especially in trade situations where there’s lots of parties involved and you can’t have exact knowledge of all of the people.

Riley Hughes: I’m curious if you have thoughts about how this is productized. So, for example, you know, my role is the CEO of Trinsic. If I want to get a vLEI, what will that look like for me? Will I go to the app store and download an app and validate myself and then sort of go through a process of getting this vLEI? Do you know at all how any of these things will be productized, or do you have a sense for how that will shake out?

Keith Uber: Yeah, I think it’ll come to the point where you need to do a transaction where your options are to get a vLEI and do the transaction, or do some other painful manual process involving ID verification, involving lookups with third-party databases. So it’ll become the quick option to do it. And if you’re doing these type of transactions every week, if you’re in an industry that is doing things like that, then you’ll probably get it from your LEI provider. So you already have a relationship with the LEI issuer. The LEI issuer may choose to become a vLEI issuer. And potentially provide that as an add-on service to the LEI service.

Riley Hughes: One of my understood benefits of LEIs or verifiable LEIs is that you can have sort of delegation and chains of authority or things like that, right, where I can delegate to people on the team for their roles and they can accomplish transactions within the scopes of their roles. How do you see all of that looking from a product perspective? Do you think I’ll have some dashboard where I can add team members and configure permissions, or how do you think this will play out?

Keith Uber: Yeah, it would have to be done from the issuer of the vLEI. It’d be part of their tool, part of their user interface to do that. It would probably require that the parties have identified, probably using vLEI, to the system before that can be done. One credential is this official organizational role that would say that you’re the director or chief executive officer or CFO. So there’s hundreds of roles officially defined in ISO standard for that. And the second type of credential is an engagement context role, and that’s where you can sort of say that you’re a customer of or a supplier to or a contractor for. So you’re doing something on behalf of somebody else. That’s already modelled in the system. But collecting that permission will have to be done by the issuer of the vLEI. So it’s not just a random thing that happens; it’s something that the vLEI issuer has to do. And that’s part of what our software does already today. We’re showing that somebody has given that authority to somebody else, and we have the proof to back that up.

Riley Hughes: Do you think the business model changes at all with vLEIs, or do you think that the same kind of business model that you’re describing here, where there are already some concepts for doing some of these kinds of things and vLEIs make things more efficient, but do you think there’s a new business model for your business here or even for the kind of second-order effects of, like, the other businesses around the ecosystem here, or do you think that the existing models will suffice?

Keith Uber: Business model is kind of comparative to the SSL world, where if you want to have a website with an SSL certificate through a certificate authority, you pay them for that certificate and the services around that, around revocation and verification. For example, a higher level EV certificate with a higher price tag. In those cases, the services themselves or the customer themselves is paying for that service in order to enable them to publish the website securely. I think the business model will remain that the individual businesses who need that LEI and also need that vLEI to do some transaction faster or do that transaction online will be the driver. They do that today. They have to pay to register an LEI number and to keep that number active. So the business model is kind of the user pays model.

Riley Hughes: And, you know, if we fast forward to a world where this is ubiquitous, where vLEIs are widespread and they’re used in all kinds of B2B transactions, your business is an LEI issuer and you have your RapidLEI platform for enabling the seeding of the market with these kinds of credentials. What do you think are the piggyback business opportunities or the new businesses and new products that will be enabled in this new world that don’t currently exist, but that are opportunities that you think will emerge because the market is seeded with these high-trust credentials?

Keith Uber: It’s also an opportunity, of course, with the vLEI, you could sign something else and include that in some other workflow. Any output made from a system could be, for example, signed by the generator as part of a process to add more value, add more authority to the end result. I think currently that’s underused today. I’m constantly being asked for PDF copies of certain documents that are completely unsigned, impossible to verify. Yet blindly trusted by the recipient.

Riley Hughes: For individuals, there’s typically a government ID, which is an anchor, right? In the U.S., there’s the driver’s license, which is the go-to example of an identity credential. But in addition to that kind of foundational identity credential, we have just dozens and dozens of other credentials, attestations, and what could be translated into verifiable credentials. I wonder if we’ll see the same thing happen in the organizational identity side, where you might have a vLEI, which is sort of a foundational, high-trust organizational credential. Because of that foundational credential, it enables the existence of many other— kinds of attestations and credentials for that organization to collect about themselves. There’s a pilot project that we did with a city in the United States for verifying the status of a business, whether it was woman-owned, minority-owned, LGBT-owned, etc. And that was done with verifiable credentials.

Riley Hughes: But you could see a world where the vLEI is a foundational credential, and you can layer on many other kinds of attestations about a business on top of that in the same kind of organizational wallet, so to speak.

Keith Uber: That’s a great example. That might be an attribute which is not stored in many business registries, in many country registries. It’s a great case. I certainly hope that there’s no proliferation of more identifiers. I don’t think the world needs more identifiers. The LEI is the only global single identifier for legal entities fit for purpose and has the governance model to back that up. This use case wouldn’t require, like, recreating that. It would just be an added service.

Riley Hughes: Yeah, it would be like something that would be enabled and more easy to accomplish, right? If you have a foundational identifier, you can attach more attributes onto that identifier and essentially build up the reputation of the identifier. So I kind of see it working that way. So I think right now I’m seeing three general patterns, and you tell me if you think I’m seeing this correctly or if I’m off a little bit. I see the individual identity, the consumer identity, maybe my government-issued identity alongside the other kinds of credentials about me, my education, my health-related credentials, etc., etc. Then we have the concept of an organizational identity, which is maybe a foundation of a vLEI alongside other kinds of organizational credentials and attestations about a business. And then I see this third bucket, which is kind of the overlap. It’s the middle of the Venn diagram, so to speak, between those two, where it is, I think I’ve heard it referenced as, like, representative identity, right? It’s the consumer.

Riley Hughes: It’s the tying the person with the organization and what their role is and what the scope of what they are allowed to sort of authorized to accomplish within that organization is. Do you think I’m thinking about this right, or how might you adjust my mental model?

Keith Uber: Yeah, the middle case we call representation governance. So that’s who you represent in a transaction and what you can do with that representation. So for a certain company, you might be the CEO. For another company, you might be just a line worker. And you can do certain things in different roles, and you might belong to more than one organization and so forth.

Riley Hughes: I see this organizational identity requires this representation because the fact that the person who is in charge of the organization is not the person using the service in 99% of the cases, 99.9% of the cases. So organizational identity requires representative identity, but representative identity requires the personal identity. So you almost need the consumer IAM to satisfy the representative piece so that you can satisfy the organizational piece. Am I thinking about that right?

Keith Uber: That’s right. You can’t do anything if you can’t be sure that the individual is first identified. Then you’ve got to make sure that the organization is clearly, to a high level of assurance, is identified, valid, the correct company, not one with the same name. And then this representation between what the person can do for their company, whose authority, for how long, for example.

Riley Hughes: Well, shifting gears for a moment, I wonder as you’ve seen the self-sovereign identity world, and as you’ve seen the world of vLEIs and so forth taking off and evolving, and early deployments and pilots getting off the ground, I wonder if you have any hot takes or feedback for the community about what are some things that you think that the self-sovereign identity or decentralized identity world could learn from the IAM world?

Keith Uber: The end user experience. How you communicate what you’re doing to the end user has to remove all of the jargon, all of the special words and phrases which we know and love and use that unfortunately still become visible to end users in many deployments. It’s not granting an entitlement to a subject. It’s sharing a document, for example. And if we use the parallel for, you know, WebAuthn for FIDO, for example, things are starting to happen once that user experience becomes completely frictionless, once the end user doesn’t actually know what technology they’re using. If we can do that with verifiable credentials, if we can do that for wallets, then it will become the norm. We’re lucky, I think, in Europe, we have COVID vaccination certificate, which is a QR code. People understood they could print proof that they had a COVID vaccine. They could take that to somebody else, somebody else could scan it and check their ID, and they would be allowed on a plane. That’s an understood use case, and that’s the same as verifiable credentials. That’s how it works.

Keith Uber: So you can prove something important to somebody else without a direct connection, without a pre-arranged… contract without a pre-arranged federation. That’s really powerful.

Riley Hughes: Yeah, I agree. Well, Keith, this has been a fantastic conversation. I always like to close by asking our guests, tell me what you think the future of identity looks like to you, and why does that matter for the world?

Keith Uber: I’m hoping the future of identity is more seamless, less interruptions, less manual processes, that identities will be reused more and more. For example, the government identity—we’ve talked about Europe a lot. I wait in hope for the EU Identity Wallet. I wait in hope for not only governments to adopt that as relying parties, but also for commercial services and third parties. Ubisecure, of course, hopes that organizational identity becomes more and more understood. The value of that is so clear that we’re hoping to see wider adoption of very easy-to-use, on-behalf-of type of transactions that revoke data at any time. Verifiable credentials in that, hopefully, is a way to also keep data quality high. So instead of storing information about the user, what they had when they registered, that you can keep any locally stored information, if required, keep that up to date from a trusted source. But all of that, I think, it really requires governance, requires some structure around it.

Keith Uber: That self-sovereign identity itself is the technology, but for wide adoption across many industries or many use cases, it requires some governing factor.

Riley Hughes: Great. Before we part, Keith, do you have anything to plug? If people want to learn more or get in touch, where should they find you?

Keith Uber: So ubisecure.com is our website. That’s got all of our contact information, the ability to have a look at both RapidLEI, which is our LEI service, and customer IAM software, Ubisecure IAM. We also have a podcast, Let’s Talk About Digital Identity. I encourage you to have a listen and join and subscribe for that.

Riley Hughes: Yeah, I’m a listener, and I can second that. It’s good. It’s very—I hope this doesn’t come off the wrong way—but it’s very snackable in the sense that I can go on a quick walk or something, and I can get an episode in. It’s very consumable.

Keith Uber: Yeah, Oscar does a great job. Oscar’s on our team, and he does a great job of that.

Riley Hughes: Yeah, there are some good episodes on organizational identity and vLEIs on your podcast as well, if the listeners are interested in digging in deeper to some of these topics that we’ve covered today. Well, with that, I will say thanks for listening. You can find us on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, and wherever else you listen to podcasts. Feel free to reach out on Twitter at Trinsic underscore ID and me at Riley P Hughes, and visit Trinsic if you’re interested in building the ID tech products of the future. Subscribe to get new episodes as they drop. And with that, I’ll say thanks a lot for joining, Keith.

Keith Uber: Thank you. Thanks, Riley.