Episode 22 – Adam Gunther – Tactical Insights from Equifax and IBM on Driving Reusable Identity Adoption

Full Transcript

Transcript lightly edited for clarity.

Riley Hughes: Welcome to The Future of Identity, a show that surfaces hard-earned insights needed to succeed in the fast-evolving world of digital identity. On The Future of Identity podcast, we skip the conceptual and theoretical conversations and dive into the tactical lessons learned from people in the trenches taking a product to market. I’m Riley Hughes, co-founder of Trinsic, and we’re a reusable identity infrastructure company powering dozens of amazing identity products. Today, I spoke to Adam Gunther, Senior Vice President and General Manager of Digital Solutions at Equifax. This was a fascinating conversation about Adam’s journey leading decentralized identity initiatives at IBM and moving into an operating role within Equifax, where he’s trying to get adoption of reusable identity, and how that strategy has evolved over time. We talk about some tactical factors that are needed for reusable identity adoption, like solutions to liability and common taxonomies for onboarding and recovery.

Riley Hughes: We also talk about how to move forward ambitious projects, specifically reusable identity initiatives within large enterprises. Adam gave three rules for getting products up off the ground here, and I won’t spoil them for you here, but they’re good. I agree with them. I really enjoyed my conversation with Adam, and I hope you do too. Now, onto the episode. Adam, welcome.

Adam Gunther: Thanks for having me, Riley.

Riley Hughes: Yeah, really glad to be with you. For the listeners’ sake, you and I met when you were at IBM and I was at Sovrin. Since then, I’ve seen you’ve gone on to Equifax, where at first it looked like you were hiring for a lot of roles with job descriptions that mentioned user-centric identity, things like that. And later I see some press releases coming out with decentralized identity companies like SecureKey and VONA and so forth. I was looking forward to this opportunity to catch up and hear about what you’ve been doing here in this reusable identity space and what you’ve learned, and hopefully there’s some things that are useful from that for our listeners.

Adam Gunther: Thanks for having me. It’s amazing to think— How many years have passed since we all started to work in this space, and we’re just scratching the surface of how we can really just change the world for the better.

Riley Hughes: Absolutely. So, I wonder if we could start out by framing when you came from your role at IBM, where you had a lot of context around decentralized identity, and you joined Equifax after the breach that had happened a few years, looks like, before you joined. In the wake of that, billions of dollars of investment going into improving all kinds of areas of security and identity and things like that. Was your role in user-centric identity connected to that, or maybe could you frame what it is that you were brought in to do there?

Adam Gunther: So as you mentioned, you and I first crossed paths when I was at IBM and leading product for all the work that IBM was doing around blockchain and decentralized identity at the time. That was my first time working in identity, working in fraud prevention. My background is cloud computing, transactional systems that ran the internet. And I always felt helpless around identity theft. I think, like many of us do, like we just accept it. And I really just got passionate about, we can actually start to solve this problem. We don’t have to give up in this digital world. And at IBM, we were building out the technology to help businesses then build their systems, infrastructure, products, et cetera, whether it’s business-facing or consumer-facing, which would then help this world of user-centric identity, reusable identity take off. What was hard for me is I always had to convince some other company to do something. One of my old colleagues was at Equifax.

Adam Gunther: We were actually catching up over dinner, and they said, Hey, we just started to work with this company called SecureKey that are getting into this space. You’re in the space. Tell me more about it. And we got to talking, and they said, Look, we’d love to have a leader come in and help us really… Take these ideas into reality. So for me, it was an opportunity to get closer to the consumer, closer to a company where we can start to action the problem. We made $1.5 billion of investment in cloud computing, and it just really felt like the perfect timing, the right opportunity, the right investment, the right like-minded people, and actually start to make a difference.

Riley Hughes: That framing makes total sense. When you got into Equifax, what was your vision? What did you have in mind? And I’m sure that’s changed over time, and we can get into that, but how did you think this was going to play out, and how did it actually play out?

Adam Gunther: The first step was one of the use cases that we’ve all been working on since the beginning days is the classic know your customer, or KYC. Think about, like, a mortgage application, how much data you have to provide from how many different sources. You fill out your loan application, and then you spend sometimes a month or more going back and forth with a loan officer, and they’re asking you for banking statements and proof of employment, and sometimes you’re downloading PDFs from the web. Sometimes you’re, like, scanning things out of a filing cabinet. And the way that we’re sending this information is not very secure. So I had this dream of this one-click mortgage. The technology is there. I can take my mobile device, I can tap and get through the application process, right? There’s still underwriting, loan approval, credit risk. That’s not my world. I’m really focused on identity verification, fraud prevention. So we were partnering with SecureKey, working with our Canadian team, and really trying to bring those capabilities to market.

Adam Gunther: There’s so many liability questions that come up because you have these systems and you get one party that’s now vouching for another party in ways that were not traditional. I may go to party X or party Y. It could be a bank, it could be a government, like to onboard into the network. And now that’s just supposed to transcend and be accepted by another institution. There was a lot that still has to be, I think, worked out for the full vision to really take hold. And we’ll get there, but that’s going to take time. And so one of the questions we start to ask ourselves is, okay, how do we take more incremental steps that start to move the ball forward, that start to make life better for citizens, for consumers? You know, we slowly solve the problem, more evolution versus revolution, which I’m a big believer in. We started to work with Bonify and credit unions around just how do we better transmit the data that we already share from Equifax to a— financial institution during that loan process. We did a proof of concept where we brought in our identity verification technologies.

Adam Gunther: We brought in consumer-consented credit data sharing experience, but applied it to the identity standard that we’ve been working with together. Maybe just take away decentralized key management for a moment, but we could still use things like FIDO to WebAuthn and use these modern technologies to provide a more secure experience. We can still use that token when we identify a consumer, one of these ones. We’ve now done that with Bonify, and that token becomes something that can be reusable across that network. We don’t actually have to start from scratch when we identify somebody. So we took that road, and I think that’s moving a little bit faster. But even that is a long put. And where we have really pivoted to and where we’re focused on right now is working with institutions. They could be people working in this user-centric identity space. It could be people in the more traditional space, but really trying to enable three things. First and foremost, onboarding and recovery.

Adam Gunther: Because if we’re going to make identities reusable, it changes where fraudsters, where criminals want to attack. Because now we’re leveraging things like encryption tokens and WebAuthn at the point of transaction, so we’re tying the data to the person. So the attack surface, as we all know, becomes a lot smaller. So now it’s how do I get that institution to onboard my device and get it trusted so that I can start to transact in the network? So the attack point becomes how do you onboard somebody the first time? How do you deal with a new device? How do you deal with a stolen device? How do you know it’s actually that person? So we are very good at identity verification and authentication. That’s what we do, KYC, AML technologies, depending on the transaction. So we’ve been focused on applying that and bringing that as a service into these types of networks. Number two around the payment space, so we do a lot in payment fraud, first-party fraud, chargeback prevention and recovery.

Adam Gunther: There’s a lot of services that we provide businesses that they’re going to need to be able to do business in these types of networks, especially if they’re not traditionally digital first. You’d be surprised the immaturity of some people’s fraud detection. If we’re going to shift people to these types of reusable worlds, we have to get good at detecting payment fraud. And then the last is bringing in that data, right? So we can then enable those types of use cases that are interesting for people, helping lives better.

Riley Hughes: Man, there’s a lot there, and there’s a lot of areas that I, in my mind, flagged as areas I want to dive a little deeper into. Before I do that, a little background. When I was at the Sovrin Foundation, I was just out of college. One of the reasons I was really interested in sticking around in the identity space instead of going off and doing whatever else after college was because I had grown up in a home where my dad was a mortgage lender. I knew that process, and I knew somebody who knew that process really well. And so what I thought was, oh, maybe this technology could be applied there. And so as I was thinking about moving on from Sovrin and starting a startup in the space, that was the first one that I went to tackle, which is the same vision as you, basically, of that seamless mortgage application process. As I dug up the kind of chain and networked my way into compliance people and chief legal officers and whatever else of mortgage companies, I quickly learned about the liability question that you mentioned.

Riley Hughes: That was really the blocker for me, and it sounds like it was a blocker for you too. Were there other things that you ran into through that process that you thought led you to— A more incremental approach to solving the problem as opposed to reinventing the whole process.

Adam Gunther: Regulation is always behind technology. I think the better that we get, where we’re all on a level playing field with the technology, with the data analytics, because I think that’s how we’re going to get to reusability. Because right now, the way that they reduce fraud, because they’re liable around it, is type control. They do the onboarding. Everybody has their own processes. Everybody’s a little bit different. Everybody believes theirs is better than everybody else’s. And so we have to get to the point that people can trust each other around that. And I think the way to do that is to build up and show other use cases and show that we can do it and show that we’re reducing fraud in other areas before we get to our ticket, high-value items. Once you show you can solve it and you’re doing something that’s better for citizens, that’s better for business, the regulations are going to catch up.

Riley Hughes: So when you joined Equifax, you knew the state of the technology, right? You knew where it was at, its shortcomings, and what it could do and what it couldn’t yet do. Aside from the liability question, what are some other kind of question marks that pop up in your head that would give you pause or that you would need to further explore before you would maybe think it was the time to jump right in and do it?

Adam Gunther: You know, what’s interesting about where we sit is that, you know, we provide services within identity and fraud and products. With that giant cloud investment that I mentioned, we’ve been moving everything into the cloud and this giant data lake we call our data fabric, building that into identities, and then so the insights that we can bring around different data, bringing in the rest of Equifax, whether it’s credit, whether it’s employment, whether it’s other data sets, that’s the pieces that we add to the world. What’s interesting is that we’re not building out the decentralized identity technology layer. That’s what you’re doing. That’s what other companies are doing. That’s not what we said. We’re not the end business. We’re not a telco. We’re not where you go to get your phone account. We’re not where you go to bank or whatever it may be. So we just sell to individual businesses. We sell to government to help with those problems.

Adam Gunther: We believe, and I believe, that that’s going to also help in this reusable, user-centric way, which, you know, is better for consumers, it’s better for business, it’s really where the world is going. We’re partnering in that space as well. And so for us, we want to provide. those services to wherever people are furthering identity, helping make the world more safe and secure for people, back to the original goals that you and I are passionate about. We hope that we can help speed up that adoption with our services that we offer. I firmly believe identity is a team sport, and we have to work together around to not be so afraid to do that. If we work together as a community, we can combat the fraudsters, especially now as fraudsters are adopting AI as much as we are as technology providers. And so if we’re not figuring out how do we share data, how do we apply AI across that to stay ahead of the fraudsters, it’s going to be really hard to do that.

Riley Hughes: So it sounds like what I’m hearing is there’s a few swim lanes. There’s the technology providers, there’s the relying parties or the end businesses, and as Equifax, you have a set of data and tools and products that may be able to help augment all the other swim lanes as well, right? And so as fast as basically those other swim lanes push forward is probably about the speed that you should be pushing forward and providing into that ecosystem.

Adam Gunther: Yeah, we’re the issuer. We’re the data provider. We also help, I think, proof identities. I firmly believe at some point, if you’re going to really detect fraud, it’s hard to allow the fraudster to control the flow of that information. So I think when we onboard somebody at that point, before we have trust their services we can provide, which we all do today in the world, we don’t have a word for that in these networks. Maybe we need something in some of our standards body of fleshing out the identity proofing, the onboarding side of that, I think a little bit more standard. Actually, just thinking, wow, this is why I love chatting with you and getting together with all of the thought leaders, is we really actually do need to standardize, I think, that part of the world a little bit more. That may help the ecosystem go, because you start to have standards on what does it mean to bring somebody on board into these ecosystems, and I think that can only help with the liability problem.

Riley Hughes: Just a minute ago, you were saying that onboarding and recovery are two key areas needed for adoption to occur, right? So if we look at those swim lanes, if I’m asking the question, okay, what will help the participants in each lane? Sounds like you’re saying onboarding and recovery are key topics, that if we can improve them, would help there. And I think that potentially standardizing on some approaches or at least making it transparent or something of how this is being done could help drive that adoption forward. Is there anything that you think on that topic of how could better onboarding and recovery drive adoption? Is there anything else there that you didn’t already mention? I feel like that could be an interesting thing to double click on, like how actually will that drive adoption and to what degree and all of that.

Adam Gunther: It’s the genesis of trust, right? It’s the genesis problem. And what’s happening today is that there’s all different groups of people working together, whether you have public networks, consortiums, a couple of companies doing nothing formal. And within those little ecosystems, they’re all trying to standardize that problem, come to some agreement. And then what happens is if you pick a vertical, like you can pick auto, you can pick insurance, you can pick financial services, you get different beliefs, and then what you do is you fragment that. So you get some of the companies go here, some of the companies go there. And that makes it tough for us to maximize the value. It’s still good, we’re moving the world forward, but we’re missing that opportunity. And so that’s, I think, one, if we can standardize that at a higher level, you’re still going to have different… Ecosystems, just like in the internet today, there’s all different technologies and ecosystems, so we have all that interoperability between them.

Adam Gunther: And I think in this world, like the business side of that interoperability is interesting. In terms of, like, how we do it, if you think about when somebody’s onboarding, there’s really two pieces to verifying somebody’s identity. Is Riley a real person, and is that actually Riley at the other end of the transaction? So the signals that you need to do that, the data, we think about them in terms of you have your physical identity and you have your digital identity. Physical identity is things like name, date of birth, address. Your digital identity, that could be your email. It could be your device. It could be your location history, right? The different things about your digital footprints. In the e-commerce space or the payment space, transaction history is interesting as well, because we can start to flag things like, Well, that’s not a normal purchase that Riley would make. We should make sure that’s actually him. One of the big drivers for why we acquired Kount was Kount is really strong at that digital identity.

Adam Gunther: Now, in over 20,000 merchants, we have this large global digital identity trust network that we use as kind of the backbones, that we apply both supervised and unsupervised machine learning on top of that to look for patterns in that to determine, is this a fraudulent situation? The unsupervised machine learning is really good at helping us detect patterns of fraud that we don’t even know exist. That’s that piece of how do you stay in front of the fraudsters. So when you marry that with what Equifax has historically done, which is really that physical identity, you’re opening a bank account, that KYC, does this name go with this address? We’re very strong in synthetic identity protection, which is a huge rising problem in the industry. By bringing those two together, you can start to create this ecosystem. Where you go to that point of onboarding, we can validate: is this a real identity? Is this the actual person presenting themselves, and have that high level of confidence.

Adam Gunther: And when you start to build in that high level of confidence, then you can associate the right data with it that allows us to not only take action, but take action in high-value transactions. That can really start to help these types of ecosystems take off at a speed that we haven’t seen yet.

Riley Hughes: You mentioned potentially, even if the players in the ecosystem that specialize in onboarding, identity proofing, KYC, identity verification, were able to standardize on a common… format for doing so, it sounds like what you’re saying is that there would be potentially gaps in the relying party market, right, where auto will want to do it differently than mortgage, which is different than iGaming, which is different than you name it. Am I hearing you right there? And if so, how do you think we solve that problem?

Adam Gunther: I think it’s less about format. Yes, we should standardize those types of things. That only helps with adoption. But I think it’s, how do we speak the same language around business policy? One of the things we know we see in our customers is that different customers have different tolerances for risk. And so we don’t want to standardize that. The decisioning needs to be left to the business. But how do we have these standard levels? So if I think about onboarding, you can even look at identity verification vendors today. There are vendors that are the lower end of the price spectrum. They don’t corroborate with a lot of data sources. That’s how they’re able to provide that for less money. And depending on your use case, that’s the right kind of price fit for that. But the other end, we do some of that too. But, like, you know, we specialize in stronger identity proofing, so it can be used for opening up bank accounts, for doing high-value transactions. Of course, that costs more money, but it works for that use case. I don’t know that we have a common language around that.

Adam Gunther: And if I draw a parallel to the physical world, you could look at what’s happening in the United States and the governments around Real ID. There is the driver’s license that everybody has, and that allows you to do certain things. But what they’re saying is, hey, if you want to go through additional vetting, we’ll put a little gold star on your license, and we’re going to call that a real ID. At some point in time, I think now it’s 2025, you’re not going to be able to go through airport security unless you have a real ID. The regular driver’s license is not going to be good for that. Do we have this notion in the digital world, these ecosystems, and say, look, there’s this common level that we expect people to go through. What does that mean? And if we do that, this level ID, whatever the terms are, it could be gold, silver, bronze. And I think there’s an opportunity to provide some guardrails as a community that people can then start to fill in and then decide what to adopt. But it starts to make the liability problem easier.

Adam Gunther: It starts to say, okay, this is what it means to be a gold standard. Here are the vendors that are certified to do that, and a business can say, oh, okay, that’s what I do. And you can actually start to build indemnification models around that. And that’ll be interesting to see how the ecosystem evolves there or not. But I think it starts with us just starting to have an open conversation over what does it really mean to do something, and not about the debate of what’s right or wrong or most secure. We get stuck in that a lot, but more of what are the different possibilities. Let’s come up with words for those, and then it’s an open ecosystem. For you, you may want to only adopt this one, others may not, and just provide people choice and flexibility, but within a common language and framework.

Riley Hughes: Adam, it’s good to hear you talk in this kind of way. It’s very similar to a lot of the thinking that we’re doing at Trinsic. I know there are other companies out there that are trying to think about this. There’s a company, Identity, that has a framework they call DIAL. There’s a company, Instant, that is trying to put levels of assurance into verifiable credentials and tie liability insurance with it. We’re working on some of this at Trinsic as well. I want to transition just because of time. You have been involved in driving, if I can call it, futuristic identity initiatives forward within now two big enterprises, IBM and Equifax. If there are folks listening who are a part of a large enterprise and have ambitions to drive a project like this forward within their institution, what are the things that you might advise? What are the things you’ve learned or things that worked for you that may be helpful in these cases?

Adam Gunther: Number one, understand your customer, their problem, maniacally focus on. And depending on what you do in your role in an enterprise, your customer could be an internal user. Like, it doesn’t necessarily have to be like, this is my paying person. Number two, understand your customer and their problems and maniacally focus on that. And number three is understand your customer and their problems and maniacally focus on that. You can’t over-index on that, and I make my teams watch way too many Steve Jobs videos. One of the things that Apple has always done well, and any good product-led company, is they’re focused on people. Technology is a means to solving the problem. You heard just our journey of how we’ve continued to evolve what we’re doing. I’ve enjoyed watching your journey because I’ve seen Trinsic make similar evolutions as well. You start with something, and then you’re out there, you’re working with customers, you learn from that, and that helps you evolve. And when you do that, surprise, you provide value to your customers.

Adam Gunther: They want to buy things from you, and then you make money. And so when you make money, then that helps businesses move forward. When you’re solving a problem too, I think it’s important to understand how the world works today and what that decision-making process looks like for your buyer. I have a saying: no smart research writers. Somebody walks up to you and says, Hey, what if your refrigerator had an app with it? If you were at the store and you forgot, do I need more eggs? Do I need more milk? It will tell you. Everyone’s going to go, That’s awesome. I would love that. And we’re like, We did it. That’ll be $4,000. And they’re like, I’ll take the dumb refrigerator, because you’re solving a problem people want to solve. But if you look at the hierarchy of how big of a problem it is for them, you start to figure out, is the juice worth the squeeze? One of those traps I’ve seen a number of companies in this space fall into is they’re out there solving a problem, and there is business value.

Adam Gunther: But if you go talk to customers and really understand, especially at the C-suite level, like where does this fall in your prioritization? And they’re like, Yeah, I can spend $10 million in and solve that problem and I’ll get back 20. But I can spend it over here and I can get back 100 million, or I can really move the needle for my customers and therefore for my shareholders. You want to try to find higher value, lower risk, because typically those problem spaces have a higher risk. If you get it wrong, you can really hurt the business. So then it’s once you figure out your North Star, here’s the promised land, here’s where I want to go in three to five years, then trying to build the right incremental plan to get there, I think is key.

Riley Hughes: This is a topic I’m really interested in, actually, especially within enterprises, is I think there’s really two approaches with identity. One is shoot for the moon and have the idealistic vision that maybe you and I each started with at some point. There’s higher risk in that maybe because it’s a big gap from where the world currently is, but there’s maybe a bigger payoff too if you can get it right. On the other hand, you could go incremental and really start small, but a lot of times with really incremental approaches, I sometimes wonder if they do enough. I’m just interested in this balance between the incrementalism and the revolution. You talked about evolution being where you’ve landed as maybe your approach that you tend to take. How do you make sure that when you’re doing things in an incremental or evolutionary way, that it really is going to build up to eventually reaching the end goals that you actually envision from the start?

Adam Gunther: The way I have approached it is you want to always check that you’re on the path, and that path can vary. Like you’re going to take different forks in the road as you go. But I think having line of sight of, okay, I’m going to take this fork now, but here’s how I still get to the destination. My boss knows Adam’s dream of the one-click mortgage. It’s a little bit of a joke. But I want to make sure that what we’re doing, like even as we’ve done things that aren’t in these reusable networks, like understanding standards, staying on a path, if that world starts to take off tomorrow, like we’re there, we’re in it. That’s a key part of our execution strategy. So you can’t lose sight of that. But I want to key on something you said, because it’s how do you make sure you’ll get there? I’ve learned over time that you don’t always get there, and that’s okay. I don’t know if the world is going to fully evolve. I don’t know how long that’s going to take. I’ll joke about the Jetsons and we’re all in flying cars and doing these things. Honestly, the world’s kind of still evolving that way.

Adam Gunther: But I think we’re already past the time period where the Jetsons took place. We’re not driving around flying cars in the sky. But within each step, that doesn’t mean that we’re not progressing and we’re not making it better. For me, it’s just continuing to push forward, continuing to be aggressive in how we do it and just charge ahead, continuing to make sure that we’re on that long-term path. And then if we’re doing that and we’re focused on people’s problems, we’re going to make the world a better place. We’re going to look back and be proud of what we’ve accomplished, however far that may take us.

Riley Hughes: This is a really great segue, Adam, into last question I like to ask guests who join the podcast, which is, what does the future of identity look like to you? How do you communicate that picturesque end state?

Adam Gunther: I’m going to switch to another dream of mine that I love to give. I go to hockey games a lot. We’re season ticket holders. And intermission, you have this small little window of time where you’re trying to typically use the restroom, you might want to replenish some beers, you might want to get food, and sometimes it’s three different lines you’ve got to wait in, and you’re accumulating stuff along the way. For me, the last thing I get to before I get back is the beer line. Even though I’m over 40 and I sometimes want to see my ID, we actually have the technology today. There’s enough there on my device, whether it’s my phone in my pocket, whether it’s my watch, that’s giving enough information. That it’s going to be me, especially if you have multiple data providers participating in this ecosystem. You triangulate it with, well, Adam has a ticket to this event. Adam lives in this area. He normally goes to this area. This is typically his device. There’s a payment instrument on these devices, right? There’s actually tokenizer. I can tap to pay. I can give consent around that.

Adam Gunther: I can pre-do my orders. I should be able to just walk up there and they just say, Oh, good to see you again, Mr. Gunther. Here’s your two beers, and just hand to me. And then that’s secure, and they know that it’s my ID, they know that it’s me, and the payment’s done. When you start to think about just how we do things, like we can just make working in the world and doing things in the world just so seamless. So for anybody that’s listening, I know you must have listeners that are in all different facets of identity. Whatever the corner of the world you work in, whatever industry, whatever government, wherever it may be, just think about how you interact with those businesses and services and think about how it could be better. It could be your own customer. And let that be your guide back to my rule number one, two, and three of just how we have an opportunity to really get to secure, trusted digital or physical interactions, for that matter.

Riley Hughes: Adam, this has been an amazing conversation. I’m glad that you made the time. Glad we could make it happen. If people want to get in touch with you, where should they find you? Do you have anything to plug? Do you have anywhere to point people?

Adam Gunther: You can find me on LinkedIn. I’m on Twitter, but I don’t use it much anymore. To learn more about what we do, I would say go to Kount.com. That covers our full portfolio within Equifax, our digital solutions team, from identity verification to authentication to different fraud detection technologies like synthetic identity to our leading and award-winning fraud prevention suite for payments, as well as what we do in chargeback management.

Riley Hughes: And that’s Kount with a K.

Adam Gunther: Yes, thank you. Check it out. And if there’s anything that’s interesting, I would love to just keep the conversation going. Whatever we can do to help move this world forward. really is going to make the world just better for us all. We’re just happy to help try to make that happen.

Riley Hughes: Great. Thanks a lot, Adam. This has been an awesome conversation. Thanks for joining.

Adam Gunther: Yeah, thanks, Riley. Thanks for having me.

Riley Hughes: Thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed this content, please share it with others who will benefit from it. I’ve been getting some great feedback on the podcast recently, and since we don’t do a lot of self-promotion or ads or whatever, sharing the word really is the best way to signal to us that the content is valuable and that we should keep doing it. You can find us on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, and wherever else you listen to podcasts. Feel free to reach out to me directly on LinkedIn or X at Riley P Hughes, and visit Trinsic if you’re interested in building the future of identity. You can also visit trinsic.id/podcast to subscribe to new shows and subscribe to the Future of Identity newsletter, where we’ll share the essential reusable identity news we rely on straight to your inbox.