Harrison Tang: Spokeo’s Vision of a “People Search Engine” Powered by Verifiable Credentials

In this episode, we sit down with Harrison Tang, Co-founder and & CEO of Spokeo, which is a “people search engine”. Spokeo aggregates many sources of data about people and sells that data to verifiers. So at first blush, Harrison is an unlikely person to be a massive advocate for SSI and co-chair of the W3C Credentials Community Group.
We dig in to why Spokeo cares about verifiable credentials, and how verifiable credentials represent the opportunity to deliver more trust to Spokeo’s customers and how they allow Spokeo to participate in the next wave of digital identity innovation. We also explore complex concepts like negative reputation and how AI will impact the personal data landscape. We finish out by talking about what current IDtech companies can learn from Spokeo’s early go-to-market and what it will take to get verifiable credential adoption.
To learn more about Spokeo visit https://www.spokeo.com/ or follow Spokeo on social media (@Spokeo). You can find Harrison on social media as well (@tang_talks) and keep up with his latest thinking through his podcast ‘Tang Talks’.
Reach out to Riley (@rileyphughes) and Trinsic (@trinsic_id) on Twitter. We’d love to hear from you.

Full Transcript

Transcript lightly edited for clarity.

Riley Hughes: Welcome to the Future of Identity podcast, where we talk to the people building the ID tech products of tomorrow. I’m Riley Hughes, co-founder of Trinsic, and we build infrastructure for launching awesome identity products. In this episode, I sit down with Harrison Tang, co-founder and CEO of Spokeo, which is a people search engine. Spokeo aggregates many sources of data about people and sells that data to verifiers. So at first blush, he’s an unlikely person to be a massive advocate for self-sovereign identity and co-chair of the W3C Credentials Community Group. So we dig in to why Spokeo cares about verifiable credentials, how they represent the opportunity to deliver more trust to their customers and allows them to participate in the next wave of digital identity innovation. We also explore complex concepts like that of negative reputation and how AI will impact the personal data landscape. We finish out by talking about what current ID tech companies can learn from Spokeo’s early go-to-market and what it will take to get verifiable credential adoption widespread.

Riley Hughes: I hope you enjoy my conversation with Harrison. Harrison, welcome.

Harrison Tang: Thank you, Riley. Very glad to be here.

Riley Hughes: I’m really excited to speak with you because there’s not a tremendous number of people in your line of work and line of business who are involved in the verifiable credential and decentralized identity space. So I think you will be somebody who has a unique perspective, a unique Venn diagram of experiences that I think will be fascinating to explore today.

Harrison Tang: Yeah, I’m glad to be here because you’re exactly right. There’s a lot of industry that call themselves the identity industry, yet they don’t intersect. So we can dive deeper into why that is today.

Riley Hughes: Yeah, a lot of people who work on things like self-sovereign identity or verifiable credentials talk about consumers taking back control over their data from mysterious data brokers that are black boxes behind the scenes. You can picture visions of scary corporate, greedy capitalists that are trying to take your data, whatever. But Spokeo is a company that is involved with consumer data. However, you take a very different approach to building the company. You’re very transparent. It’s very front and center. I searched myself on Spokeo and was able to see firsthand how it works. And you are involved in the W3C working groups for verifiable credentials. And I’ve heard you advocate for self-sovereign identity over and over. So. Curious if you can connect the dots here. Maybe explain what do you do at Spokeo, where you think the future of identity is going in terms of self-sovereignty, and what maybe is Spokeo’s role in making that happen.

Harrison Tang: I’ll start with introducing myself a little bit. So I’m the co-founder and CEO of Spokeo. So Spokeo is one of the biggest people search engine and identity verification service in the United States. We aggregate about 19 billion records, and we link them into 600 million person entities. And we help about 15 million users a month to search, connect, verify, and know who they’re dealing with. So I’m also serving as the culture of W3C Credentials Community Group. So we’re one of the leading decentralized identity, self-sovereign identity, open standards making bodies out there. In addition to that, I also serve as the chairman of the biggest Chinese American Technology and Science Association called Southern California Mong Tech Association. And lastly, I’m the dad of four sons, so I’ve got quite a bit of titles here. I probably should. Yeah, focus a little bit down the road. Earlier you mentioned identity, and I think we should probably define what that means, because Spokeo is a data company, and data companies like to be very exact about definitions.

Harrison Tang: If you look at and search whether it’s the Google Dictionary, Oxford Dictionaries, and things like that, identity is data, characteristics, and attributes about a distinct entity. Right? So there’s two dimensions to this definition. One is people data attributes, right? The second one is the idea of existence and being, which is the idea of entity. I would add the third dimension, which is access control, because data and characteristics that no one can access, that’s not available anywhere. It’s just zeros and ones in some database that no one cares about. Really, I would expand this definition to be accessible characteristics about a distinct entity. Based on this definition, you can see that there’s really three different disciplines involved, right? If you just have an entity without characteristics and data attributes attached to it, then honestly it’s just some hash that no one cares about. It’s just some account ID that’s completely useless. So the first one is called data attributes, right? And Spokeo plays in that role.

Harrison Tang: We aggregate multiple different records and we bring them together. That’s the data attributes part of it. The second part is the idea of entity. This is philosophical, to be very frank. A lot of people don’t realize that your digital identity is actually an artificial construct. So one of the problems out there is called entity resolution. How do you actually form an entity? How do you actually create a being, an identifier out of all these different records? One of the W3C standards called centralized identifiers is trying to solve another aspect of entity, which is self-sovereignty control over identifiers. And lastly, there’s the access controls, and we can talk about three-party models, the verifier, issuer, and holder kind of three-party models, which I consider as part of the role-based access control model. Those things such as privacy and security, that kind of sits under access control. But as you can see, it is a very deep subject, and it is a big problem that we’re very excited to play a small part in helping contribute solving this question of who we are.

Riley Hughes: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Now, as you think about your core business at Spokeo, you mentioned, what did you say, 90 billion records or something like that that you aggregate?

Harrison Tang: 19. One nine.

Riley Hughes: 19 billion records. Okay, 19 billion. Still hard to really wrap my head around. Can you contextualize how big is Spokeo? You’re aggregating all these records. What is the magnitude of checks being done, or identities being looked up, or is there another way that you can contextualize the size of Spokeo and the relative impact that you have across this landscape?

Harrison Tang: First of all, let’s go a little bit deeper into this trust triangle, three-party model, what that means, and then what’s Spokeo’s role in that three-party triangle right now. And then I can go into a little bit deeper about those records and then how do we actually bring them all together. Identity ultimately is about relationships, and you can model relationships into different roles, and there’s three roles. The first role is verifiers or searchers, people needing this kind of identity data to do things, whether it’s identity verification to make sure that the transaction is authenticated, right, or searchers, like finding someone, long-lost families and friends, those kind of things. So those are verifiers and searchers. The second one is the issuers or data sources. Basically, an example of your driver license, the issuer of your driver license is actually the DMV. A lot of people don’t realize that data about you is not necessarily your data, because most data about you is actually not created and generated and issued by you.

Harrison Tang: In the case of the driver license example I just gave, the data about you is actually issued by the DMV. And lastly is the holder and the data subject, right, the person being searched. And the whole point of self-sovereign identity is to empower the data subjects such as you and I to mediate the identity-related transaction. But today, how most of the searchers and identity verification works does not involve the data subject. So today, you can think of services like Spokeo as a service that connects searchers and verifiers directly to the issuers without the data subject. So we actually work with the issuers and data sources. We aggregate all of them, and we serve about 15 million unique users, tens of thousands of businesses to actually perform identity verifications or people search kind of transactions. So that’s what we do today. And the 19 billion records side of things, just to clarify, that’s a record ID, so it’s not distinct subjects. Obviously, there’s not 19 billion person entities out there. And the record ID is not just about an individual, but it’s also about updates.

Harrison Tang: In database engineering, there’s something called slowly changing dimension. So when a certain attribute changes and we deem that attribute is substantive enough, then we’ll create a new ID. In our Spokeo terminology, we call it exploded. So we explode out a single individual’s records into multiple and combine together unique record ID identifiers. The count is 19 billion. But then what we do is we link them together, right? So different records, we look at them, and then we perform some kind of match and see if those two records are similar, and then we create graphs. So in this graph application, each node is a record, and each edge or relationship between the nodes are basically similarity matches. Are they similar or not? And then we create this record graph, and the person entity is basically a connected component of these graphs, and that’s basically how things work.

Riley Hughes: Yeah, awesome. That’s really helpful. When I went to Spokeo, I looked myself up. I never imagined myself as a verifier, connecting with essentially issuers or sources of data, but really that’s what I was doing. And that’s really an interesting way to frame what you currently do in the context of the three-party issuer-verifier-holder model. You’re obviously deeply involved with the verifiable credentials work. Verifiable credentials, generally speaking, incorporate the data subject as a prime kind of member of this interaction pattern. Generally speaking, verifiable credentials go in a wallet. Ideally, that wallet’s controlled by the end user somehow, and they’re able to consent to data being shared about them. I wonder, how do you see your current business at Spokeo, where you’re connecting searchers directly with data sources, mapping to a world in which consumers are the aggregators of their own data sources about them, and searchers can request directly of those individuals? How do we get from where we are today to that future world?

Harrison Tang: Yeah, that’s a good question. So let’s clarify what the future is, and then let’s talk about how do we go from the present to the future. So the future, I believe, will be self-sovereign, because at the end of the day, if you ask everybody, should your digital identity be yours? I think the answer is yes. So I think the problem is not—that’s not the future. The problem is how do we actually get there? How do we get there is a much tougher problem. So from a high level, what we’re trying to do with Spokeo is we’re trying to help the data subjects to intermediate the identity transaction. So today, the identity transactions, the searches, the verifications, does not involve the data subject, and we want to make sure the data subject is involved. And obviously, we have to do it in a very seamless way. Because at the end of the day, our customers, our end users, people who are paying for Spokeo are searchers and verifiers.

Harrison Tang: And if we make the self-sovereign identity, the consent-based approach, very hard for searchers and verifiers, then we will not be able to sustain this business very long. So we have to basically build a workflow and a process that basically rivals and be about the same as the current approach for the searchers and verifiers. But if we can achieve that, then. we can not just continue to serve our existing customers today, but we can actually help empower the subject with self-sovereignty of their identity. So on a high level, that’s basically what we’re trying to achieve. And I can go into details of what we’re trying to do to make that happen, but that goes are in the details, and that’s why it hasn’t happened today.

Riley Hughes: Let’s go into that then, right? Like, how do you see that transition occurring? I think, as you said, most people would agree that this looks like the future. Every new sort of paradigm of identity gets us a little bit closer to consumer permission data, or where the data subject is the one consenting to their data being shared. But we’re still not all the way there yet, as you explained. So what is needed to get us a little bit closer? And again, if you can connect that to what you’re doing at Spokeo or how you see that evolving, that’d be super interesting to hear.

Harrison Tang: Great. So long story short, it’s about product-market fit. It’s about money, right? If there is a lot of monetization opportunities, then there will be easier, right, more resources done to actually make this happen. But at this moment, the monetization opportunity is not huge enough, and that’s why I think this vision probably will take some time to happen. But let me give a couple more concrete examples of how technology can evolve to make this self-sovereign identity dream happen. So one of them will be basically search agencies or data subject agencies, right? Identity wallets, a smart identity wallet. Everyone says they care about privacy, and privacy, by the way, is defined as control over data access to yourself or one’s group. And everyone says they care about it, but when you told people, hey, are you willing to pay $10 a month for it? Or you ask them, hey, do you want to adjust your privacy settings every time you share something? Most people don’t do it. That’s the essence of what’s called privacy paradox. Now, this problem is not unsolvable.

Harrison Tang: YouTube can recommend what you want to watch next pretty accurately. I’m pretty sure recommendation engines can recommend what you want to share to whom, about what, at what time, very accurately as well, right? So how do we actually leverage technologies? In this example, I use a recommender, which is a kind of information filtering system, to streamline the data sharings and facilitate identity transaction processes. If this can be automated on users’ behalf, as agency on users’ behalf, that will help us push toward the self-sovereign identity dream a lot further. So that’s just one concrete example. There are a lot of other technologies I think is quite interesting, like large language models can help, I believe so too. But ultimately it’s about are there monetizable product-market-fit opportunities that actually build out this ecosystem and bring this dream of self-sovereign identity into a reality?

Riley Hughes: I think I love the framing of product-market fit is about money, ultimately. Generally, money is a proxy for solved problem, right? Because generally people like their money, they like their dollars. But they also like getting their problem solved. And generally speaking, if you can solve a problem for somebody, they’ll trade their money for whatever the solution to that problem is.

Harrison Tang: A business needs to have cash flows, and there’s two ways to get cash, right? One is from customers. The other one is from investors. Now, some sexy industries, such as Web3 two years ago or gig economy about 10 years ago, they continue to get money from investors without actually getting money from customers. Self-sovereign identity today is not sexy enough to make that happen. And second, if you continue to get money from investors without ever getting money from customers, at some point the house of cards will crash down. So for many different reasons, I think it’s more healthy to actually monetize from customers as opposed to investors. And this is a business problem that I think our ecosystem and our industry needs to solve before this really takes off.

Riley Hughes: Yeah. So as you look at concepts like verifiable credentials, what problem will verifiable credentials solve for Spokeo? Or is that the wrong question to be asking? Is the right question to ask what problem will verifiable credentials solve for Spokeo’s customers? Do VCs solve a problem for you, or are you interested in VCs because they solve a problem for your customers?

Harrison Tang: Yes. So I think there’s many different interesting concepts about verifiable credentials. I think one of the most interesting concepts is how it actually explains the trust triangle and how it connects the three-party models that we just described. And I think that’s actually the most interesting part of verifiable credentials and this whole idea of self-sovereign identity. Now, obviously, there’s more to the verifiable credentials than just three-party trust triangle models. It also includes digital signature to ensure that the digital credentials is tamper-proof. It can be trusted so that it can achieve what I call transitive trust properties, so that the verifiers and searchers don’t have to trust the issuers directly. It can actually go through the intermediary data subject and still trust the data that’s issued by the issuer. That’s what I call the transitive trust property. So obviously, digital signature does that, and there’s more to verifiable credentials than just what I described. But I think these are the key core concepts.

Harrison Tang: And for us, for Spokeo, what’s interesting is, as I mentioned, we do believe that the future will be self-sovereign. So we do want to ensure that we are at the cutting edge of it to ensure that we will play a role in that future. So that’s first and foremost. And how it actually helps our customers is that if we can actually achieve this ecosystem, then the trust of our customers is no longer just with Spokeo, right? The worst thing about gaining trust is to just say, trust me. We did this survey a couple of times, okay? Like, the worst positioning about gaining trust is just say, hey, trust me. Trust you have to show, not tell. How do we actually transition to this model where, hey, trust Spokeo to don’t trust Spokeo. Trust all the issuers that Spokeo work with. And, by the way, you have digital signatures, you have all these tamper-proof cryptographic properties that goes with it, so you don’t have to trust someone, you don’t have to trust Spokeo. You can just trust the cryptography, as well as who you trust on the issuer side.

Harrison Tang: Now, if we can achieve that, that would be great, and we can gain a higher level of trust with our customers.

Riley Hughes: Yeah. Ultimately, verifiers or searchers, generally speaking, the problem they’re trying to solve is a trust problem. They are going to get new information about the data subject so that they can make a more well-informed decision about whatever they’re going to do next, right? Whether it’s approve them for a loan or if it’s an individual searching on somebody that they met on a dating app, whether they want to go on this date or whatever. These are very different use cases for very different people, but ultimately it still is a verifier looking for more information that they can trust so they can make a better trust decision. So what I’m hearing from you is that there’s two elements here. One is self-sovereign identity is the future, and so you want to be abreast of what’s happening here and make sure you’re playing a role in it. And number two. If you can improve the trust coefficient of the data that you’re able to share, it improves the value proposition that you deliver to your customers. Am I hearing that right?

Harrison Tang: Yes, correct. And this sounds ironic, but decentralized trust can actually be more trusted, because most people don’t want to place their trust with one person or one entity. If a lot of people, a lot of entities, a lot of issuers said this is trusted, most people, most searchers and verifiers, they will trust it even more. And we did a lot of A/B tests before with tens of thousands of users. Trust me, trust increases conversion rate.

Riley Hughes: All right, now that you said trust me, I don’t know if I should trust you or not, but I’m just kidding. One other thread that I was really excited to talk to you about, Harrison, is the concept that I call negative reputation. When most people talk about reputation, it’s in the context of things that you do well or things that are good about you, your positive reputation. But we also all have a negative reputation as well. Examples of a negative reputation would be things that generally I don’t want searchers or verifiers to know about me. Maybe I don’t want the car dealership to know that I’m behind on paying my medical bills, because then the car dealership might give me a higher interest rate if I’m buying a car, for example. It’s just a silly example, but if all data is controlled by the subject, and this data subject alone is the one consenting to it being shared, then if the car dealership were to ask me to provide my data about my payments history, theoretically I could just say, Sure, here’s all the good payments history.

Riley Hughes: Or if someone is a sex offender, maybe they don’t want to share the fact that they’re a sex offender when they’re applying to live near the school or whatever it is, right? And they could withhold information. And if all data is only under the control of the individual, how do we stop that? So in my mind, seems like verifiable credentials are not a solution for this negative reputation element, but rather that some sort of third-party entity like a credit bureau or like a people search engine like a Spokeo would be able to play a role. But I’m curious, since I’m sure that you have a lot of these types of use cases, maybe you could speak to some of those, and then imagine a world that’s fully self-sovereign. How do we solve this negative reputation problem?

Harrison Tang: So I think the trust triangle, the self-sovereign identity, the method of identity verification will not work in some cases that you just mentioned. If I’m a criminal, then obviously I don’t want people to know that I’m a criminal. So that’s why earlier I mentioned that the self-sovereign identity dream can be achieved for most. I just say, oh, most of the identity-related transactions controlled by the data subject. And the reason why it’s the most, not all, is because there will be use cases such as negative reputation, those kind of use cases where the searchers and verifiers will still have to go directly to the source. But that is not the majority of identity transactions happening today. While we need to be mindful of those kind of use cases, we can still move toward the self-sovereign identity dream because I think most of the identity transactions, whether it’s creating new accounts, onboarding, or even your customer compliance, those kind of requirements, I think can be done through SSI.

Harrison Tang: And I also want to clarify, there’s a difference between SSI, self-sovereign identity, and also verifiable credentials. So verifiable credentials technically is a data format, right? It is basically digital credentials with a digital signature so that the verifiers and searchers, whoever that’s actually looking at this credential, can trust that it comes from the issuer and the data is not tamper-proof. People are not changing whatever the issuer’s claims are, the data points from the issuers, and then says, hey, these are valid and authenticated. So verifiable credentials is a kind of a digital credential. credentials data format. Even without data subjects, I still think that verifiable credentials data format can play a role because as a verifier, as a searcher, I do want to know that the data is not being tampered. The data can be trusted. The data comes from the issuer.

Riley Hughes: Sometimes I tend to conflate or use terms like verifiable credentials and self-sovereign identity synonymously because a lot of people implementing verifiable credentials are doing it with the end goal of self-sovereignty in mind. However, I think that very few successful verifiable credential projects today are fully self-sovereign. And I think that’s just the nature of the incrementalism that’s required to be pragmatic about what consumers will adopt. You can’t skip steps, and I think meeting users where they are sometimes means starting with something that they are more familiar with and that’s adoptable today, and moving toward a more self-sovereign future over time. So, totally agree. I want to shift a little bit away from the kind of what does the future of self-sovereign identity look like relative to Spokeo conversation, although this has been a super, super fascinating conversation. I want to shift into asking you about your journey as a founder and CEO of this company.

Riley Hughes: I think one thing that I see ID tech startups and projects sometimes struggle with is figuring out their go-to-market and getting initial adoption and traction. One reason for that is because identity touches everything, and it’s so easy to have such a big vision of the future. And want to solve all the problems. So I’m curious, how did you view this in the early days of Spokeo? What did your early go-to-market look like with a people search engine that I’m sure has all kinds of different use cases and all kinds of different customers? Did you find that you were able to build a general-purpose platform that was useful for all different customers on day one, or did you have some initial focuses or targets or use cases that you focused on first?

Harrison Tang: Yeah, definitely the latter. So first of all, Spokeo didn’t start out as a people search engine or even an identity platform. We started out as a social network aggregator back in 2006, and then we got on news and blogs and things like that. But we weren’t able to find anybody—that’s an exaggeration—but we weren’t able to find enough people to keep the lights on. So we have to evolve and change, otherwise we’ll just go belly up. So we kind of stumbled into this kind of people search market when I just go through Google and I realized that there are companies that can actually afford to pay, like at that time, five cents per click on the search engines. I was like, wow, if they could do that, they must be able to monetize and find product-market fit. So that’s how we evolved into this market back in 2008. I just had and hosted an AI conference like three days ago, and I’m just hearing all these new models coming out. So we just have to keep change and keep evolving. And the key thing is you want to start with a niche.

Harrison Tang: You want to start with a very targeted audience, because in marketing, when you start with a targeted audience and a niche, your cost per acquisition goes down. That’s the cool thing about personalization. And when you actually start scaling, your cost of acquisition actually goes up. So it’s like the inverse of economy of scale, which I call diseconomy of scale. In marketing, there’s no economy of scale. There is only diseconomy of scale due to the innate nature when you scale, you have less personalization.

Riley Hughes: I’m curious if there are use cases around verifiable credentials or digital wallets that you’re personally excited about, or niche areas that you would love to see ID tech founders or product managers go tackle.

Harrison Tang: So identity wallet is a service that acts and serve on behalf of the data subjects, right? So it is quite different from Spokeo. Our current service serves and acts on behalf of the searchers and verifiers, so it is quite different. But for identity wallet that acts and serves the subjects, I think the key industries will be identity protection, password managers, those kinds of services. That’s a huge industry, right? I estimate about one billion dollars a year. What’s interesting is it’s not actually about the technology; it’s about emotion. So I think if I have an advice for entrepreneurs that’s trying to tackle that industry, where building services and tools that serves the data subjects, is that you actually have to really hone in on what customer emotions you’re trying to serve, because for that market, technology actually is a distant second place. People care about how do you actually address and satisfy and fulfill their emotional need. And in many cases, it’s actually fear.

Riley Hughes: I spend a lot of my time Thinking about verifiable credential adoption and going out and trying to figure out what will cause it to go faster, because there’s sort of a chicken-and-egg situation inherent with any three-party model, as you’ve described, where there’s a network effect that will kickstart once there are enough of any of those parties. But without the presence of any one of those parties, it’s challenging for the other two to get enough value out of the system. And so I think when verifiable credentials are widely adopted, it’s pretty much a no-brainer. But getting there seems to be the challenge. So I’m curious, from your perspective as somebody working at the highest levels of these standardization bodies as well as running a successful company, what do you see is required for verifiable credentials to achieve mainstream adoption? What can we be doing? as a community to make it happen faster?

Harrison Tang: Self-sovereign identity is a classic multi-sided marketplace problem. There are a lot of books out there that talks about what are the challenges and how do you solve it. One of the classical problems is what’s called cold start problem, where you have a marketplace of zero, then no one cares, right? The value of marketplace is zero. So I think that’s probably the biggest challenge in SSI today, is the cold start problem. How do you actually cold start this engine? And obviously there are other problems, such as how do we actually enhance the interoperability so that we can actually get more players into this ecosystem. When you have more players in the ecosystem, it actually helps the cold start problem as well. But ultimately, to answer your question, for me, my perspective is how do we find the use case where there will be a product-market fit, where the self-sovereign identity model can actually achieve natural product-market fit and have a monetizable, sustainable business model going forward.

Harrison Tang: And I think that’s one thing that Spokeo hasn’t found yet that we are actively looking. And I personally think this community still needs to look for that. And I think technology is quite important. And I love inviting different technical experts on CCG every Tuesday to talk about different topics. Just want to add on the W3C CCG. Tech is cool, but I think the biggest challenge for our community as a whole is how do we find that business case?

Riley Hughes: I wholeheartedly agree with that. I want to close us out here by asking a question that I ask every guest, which is, I’d love to hear your perspective on what does the future of identity look like, and why does that matter for the world?

Harrison Tang: I think the future of identity will be self-sovereign. And the reason why that’s important is because identity is ultimately about who we are, which is one of the six important questions in English language, or any language that I know. Who we are, obviously, everyone cares about it in the physical world, but as our activities move more and more online, I think the question of who we are will become increasingly important in the digital world as well. So I think this whole idea of digital identity, right now it’s just the means to the end, the how to the what. But I think that as the digital world, or some people call it metaverse, matures, this idea of who we are, that idea of digital identity, will take on its own new meaning and actually empower a whole new digital economy. And that’s why it’s very important and exciting for me and for many other people in the community.

Riley Hughes: Harrison, this has been a really fun conversation. We’ve been Twitter friends for a little while now, so it’s good to have a little more time to chat here on the podcast. I’m curious, do you have anything to plug before we go, or if people want to learn more about Spokeo or get in touch with you directly, where would you send them?

Harrison Tang: Yeah, so if you want to know more about Spokeo, just go to Spokeo.com, S-P-O-K-E-O, or follow us on different social media. And if you want to learn more about who I’m thinking, I’m active on different social medias. You can just find me on Tang Talks, at T-A-N-G T-A-L-K-S.

Riley Hughes: Thanks a lot, Harrison, and thank you for listening. You can find us on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, and wherever else you listen to podcasts. Feel free to reach out on Twitter or now X, at Trinsic underscore ID, and me at Riley P. Hughes, and visit Trinsic if you’re interested in building the ID tech products of the future. Subscribe to get new episodes as they drop. Thanks a lot.